Tuesday, July 01, 2008

Class balance in 10 man raiding

When I saw who Wichita listed as folks interested in the raid group I was happy to see who there. Then I saw what people want to play and I cried. When ret pallies are more popular than locks or hunters you wonder how long it would take to kill a boss. Healing is also not real popular either. I don't mind full time healing but I think one resto druid would be enough. Anyway I thought I would list what in my mind would be the perfect 15 for a 10 man raid guild.

1 Prot Warrior
1 Prot Paladin
1 Death Knight
1 Feral Druid
1 Holy Paladin
1 Resto/Balance Druid (depending on what is needed)
1 Resto/Elemental Shaman (depending on what is needed)
1 Holy/Shadow Priest (depending on what is needed)
1 Warlock
1 Mage
1 Hunter
1 Rogue
1 Enhancement Shaman
1 Ret Paladin
1 Priest of any sort

To me that covers everything, no fury warrior, but the group buffs brought by the enhance shaman/ret paladin put them at the top for me. If there was an encounter where you would want a balance druid and a tree druid you wouldn't have that, but I'm guessing there aren't many of those. You should be able to make a strong melee or caster dps group out of this. There are also no more than 3 of any class.

The group that went any given night would depend on people's availability and the encounters being done, since this is ideal people will be there when needed. I would think you would want one prot warrior/pally and one feral druid/Death Knight to cover tanking. Five dps, whatever you can get that night that would be best for what's coming up. For healing two heal specced healers and one moonkin/elemental shaman/shadow priest if any extra healing is needed. Since healing and dps gear will basically be the same the off healer won't have to switch much making it way easier to gear to heal and dps than it would be for a ret paladin or enhance shaman.

I don't think you "need" all this to have successful raid. I don't think you have to take the perfect group and sub out people for fights. If your pool of players lacks depth of classes/specs you're making life much harder on yourself. I'd personally like to just prepare to have my druid for resto/balance heal or dps as needed, but we have 4 druids. We don't need more than one rogue, we wouldn't need more than one hunter either. So I might re roll something, who knows? That's all.


Wichita said...

I wouldn't reroll Lakini. Most people are still up in the air about what class they "want" to play. Once all the info is out and changes are done then people can decide on a class.

Class Balance is an issue for sure and one that should / will be addressed.

Blue said...

I really really like the synergy that fury warriors/enhance shamans have. It is one of the main reasons I have decided to roll one. It is only going to get better with the totem changes and windfury buff situation. Shamans can just do insane things for warriors, and it puts them over ret pallys in my opinion for pure dps at least.

Lakini said...

Having a fury warrior over a ret paladin doesn't make much a difference to me.

If you look at the 10 man encounters out there there are certain ones where you really need a certain class to do it until you over gear it. Moroes for instance, we went with Ferth's theory of we can work around it without a priest and wiped over and over again. We brought in a priest and one shot him. There is no encounter that I can think of where I wish we had a fury warrior. That doesn't mean you wouldn't want one in a raid.

The difference between getting that tough encounter done is probably going to the shaman or druid who switched to heal a priest's shackle or mages sheep, not higher dps. I worry we won't have enough people playing healers or classes with cc and we'll make end game much harder on our selves than needed.

Peter Marcantonio said...

I think working without a fury warrior for ten man is a mistake. For finishing a boss off at 20% nothing beats execute combined recklessness and a shamans windfury. Not to mention that a prot pally combined with a well geared fury warrior is outstanding for large mobs.

Ferth said...

Finishing off a boss past 20% with windfury, recklessness, deathwish, heroism, and execute sounds great on paper..but from my experience..more times then not, this means a dead warrior :( It's damage is so great, then I've found our tanks can never build enough threat to hold aggro through that kind of damage.

Anyway..I wouldn't say fury warrior is a must have, nor would I say any of the classes listed are...some are nicer to have then others...fury warrior is down lower on that list, because they are a super specialized damage machine, that doesn't offer much in terms of CC, or buffs for teammates. The bigger issue, is that we probably can't go into the expansion with almost all our DPS of the melee variety. Not just because some encounters aren't melee friendly..but because melee DPS all lack CC as well :\

Ferth said...

I like the balance druid a lot...hunter and rogue are both 1 dimmentional, non-versatile DPS classes, that bring little/nothing to the party.

The balance druid brings the crit aura, which synergizes with some of the classes in the raid, and it brings versatility, which is most valuable of all. Versatility makes raids happen, and wins fights that couldn't have otherwise be won/faught.

I'd use the rogue or lock for PvP purposes, and stick with the druid for PvE. I wouldn't worry about a raid with too many druids..you're going to end up being the only balance druid, and more druids is more innervates, and battle rezzes. Druids are one of the most group friendly classes in the game, and throwing more of them into the mix isn't a bad thing.

I think the ideal 10 man raid could easily incorporate 3 druids.

Peter Marcantonio said...

Ferth i do agree with the agro management issues but have to understand that these are much more prevalent with Arm speccd warriors because they do not use improved berserker's stance, most of the larger more progressed guilds rely on both Hunters and Fury warriors for their top end boss dps. Fury warriors are much better equipped to handle threat.

Wichita said...

Some of the melee classes do bring some cc ... Rogues and Enhance Shaman do anyway.

Ferth said...

I guess my point is...as the size of the group gets larger, there's more room for specialization, while in smaller group environments, versatility is infinitely more useful. People that are able to fit more then one of: DPS, Tank, Heal, CC are going to have a lot more grouping opportunities in the 5 and 10 man areas then highly specialized classes.

None of this is to say that fury warriors are useless in 5 or 10 man's...but we definitely have an excess of melee DPS currently in wichita's list of probable class choices.